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This is part of a standardisation proposal for lists of works. It is open to discussion about its relevance, the ways in which it could be implemented and the layout and format to be chosen.
On ISBNs and "latest edition"s
I wondered why there was a certain uniformity to the bizarre lists of works I kept seeing. Now I know: People are assiduously following the advice given here. I think this advice is bad.
We read (after markup-stripping):
Copac has one copy of this, which turns out to be the 1991 Grove Weidenfeld (NY) edition. It's an edition that predates by a full decade the "Flamingo sixties classic" (London) edition, of which Copac has more copies. The latter may be the latest British edition (I'm too lazy to check), but I'd be very surprised if it was/is legally sold in the US, where there's Naked Lunch: The Restored Text (Grove, 2004, ISBN 0802140181), a still newer Harper Perennial edition (2005, ISBN 0007204442), and perhaps more besides.
"Current paperback" is an odd interpretation of "the most likely to be available edition" if you're looking in a library catalogue. If you're looking in an online bookstore, you must tackle the built-in obsolescence of this guideline -- and a hidden built-in obsolescence, too; as the "year" is that of the original edition, not the "latest" paperback. (I only found out that 0-8021-3295-2 is far from the latest edition by searching for it and finding this out for myself.)
Where you have a book that has come out in multiple editions that don't vary substantially -- and, not being a Burroughs fan, I don't know offhand if the "restoration" is significant -- then I suggest that the editor should normally skip the publication details of any edition. I mean, if I want to get hold of a copy of Zuleika Dobson, I can just type "zuleika dobson" into an OPAC or dealer's website and see what pops up.
If on the other hand it's hard to search for the book -- e.g. because its title is not in roman script; or the same author used the same title for very different books (there are at least two very different books by Tadahiko Hayashi titled Kasutori no jidai) -- and providing full publication details may avoid confusion, then give full publication details, ISBN included.
And of course give full publication details of any edition used for one or more citations that specify page number(s), as pagination may well vary among editions.
Here is an example of my way of doing it. The result is pretty informative (I hope), but (I hope) sensibly so. -- Hoary 08:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll work on this, and shall post a draft here on the talk page before putting it in the page itself.
I'll keep it simple at first by only dealing with books that were written and first published in English -- though it really does seem to me that these are generally so unproblematic as hardly to need any advice; it's the "foreign" stuff that brings nightmares. -- Hoary 04:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Right then, here's a first sketch. It's dreadfully long, I realize. Comments, suggestions? -- Hoary 06:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, prolix and disorganized stuff. I'll think it over and revisit it later today. And really, I'd rather put my limited energy into getting this right than also start thinking about discographies etc (about which I don't know that much). -- Hoary 23:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's a second attempt. I'll fiddle with it further a bit later today. -- Hoary 00:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I fiddled with it further. Flaws probably remain, but I'm certain that the year-title-ISBN advice is bad, and that a flawed replacement for this is an improvement, so I stuck it in (and deleted the draft from here). -- Hoary 04:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
i'm a bit confused with the bibliography section listing the example formats. they don't seem to conform with mla , apa, cms, or template:cite book formatting styles. --emerson7 | Talk 16:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Necessity of forking bibliography from main article
Here is an excerpt from a recent discussion on bibliographies taking from this AfD:
Aesthetics is a legitimate argument while notability is not. Sometimes a writer is known for writing in a particular genre but not another genre (to the general public) but that does not make his/her other writings uninteresting. Black Harry, you seem to be assuming that users only want a superficial understanding of each subject and only want to reinforce what they already know - why would they not want to learn something new about William Monahan, for example? Why include only his "famous" works which readers will already come to the page knowing about? Some of us want more than that and wikipedia has a unique opportunity to educate readers. BillDeanCarter, you should check out WP:LOW, which describes how to write a bibliography, discography, etc. I have already invoked it above. I believe that many of your concerns are addressed there. Perhaps a sentence could be added about the necessity of forking at times (this would have to be discussed on the talk page, of course). Obviously many editors have already done this, so there is a lot of precedent (there is even a category, as you know). In fact, the page itself references some lists already. All of which should demonstrate to those debating here that this is an accepted and necessary practice amongst those of us who write about art and artists. Awadewit Talk 20:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I propose that a section be written in the MOS (list of works) about when you can create a separate article for a bibliography, forking from the main article. As well as a recommendation to add the Category:Bibliographies by author to bibliographies that currently exist, and that are to be created.-BillDeanCarter 21:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the additional piece of policy I propose at the head of the Bibliographies section
Bibliographies are included for authors, illustrators, photographers and other people who have published books, or substantial portions of books. If a person is notable enough to have an article, then a separate article for a list of his or her works is warranted if the list is long enough to cause aesthetic problems in the person's main article. The notability of the individual contents of the list of works is not required. It is encouraged that complete bibliographies of authors, illustrators, photographers and other people who have published books be tabulated. If a complete bibliography has a separate article then a selected bibliography may be detailed in the main article even though its contents will be duplicates.
This policy clarification can be used to defend AfD proposals that may target list of works.-BillDeanCarter 01:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Examples and Proposal
List_of_books_by_P._G._Wodehouse There are 90 odd books, and many stories. Some of the stories are located in some of the books, some published separately and collected different ways in different editions of the book, and about half the works have different US and UK titles. furthermore, there is a WP article about almost every novel, and about some of the individual short stories. (There's even a separate List of short stories by P. G. Wodehouse, which is perhaps justified by the degree of complication, and the individual articles about individual stories.) There is furthermore at least one book and one book chapter devoted to discussing what should be on the list. Criteria: number of works, number with separate articles in WP, RSs, complexity I've removed importance because I mean world-wide importance over time. I'm a fan, and I have read about 90%, but I don't want to judge on that basis.
::List_of_compositions_by_Ludwig_van_Beethoven Several hundred by the standard lists. The article lists them twice, once by genre, and once more completely by standard number. Again, there are whole books devoted to that numbering--not just about his work but about how to list them. It too meets the primary N rule. Criteria: number of works,large number with separate articles in WP, world-wide importance of works, RSs, complexity and then for about 60 other musicians. ]
I summarize this into the beginnings of criteria.
- The first one I see is that it is much more possible to justify the article for composers where there is a standard numerical listing, and books about it. So that's one set of rules.
- Otherwise, a very minimal one is to go back to general N: two or more independent works deal primarily with the listing itself--not the works in a musical or historical sense, but which are to be included in the lists and how they should be arranged. Most classic literary authors would be included here, as a standard professional separately published bibliography does this. but perhaps too many. I think we need to narrow it down some more. But that seems at least a starting point: if such works do not exist, the article is certainly not justified. The MOS doesn't really serve justify articles, but just say how they are to be written.
- I think it would be folly to try to establish complete bibliographies here. If they are not excerpts from other standard works, they are OR, and much too extensive to undertake.
- There is furthermore no need whatsoever to have separate listings of individual book reviews or periodical pieces--I think it's to be discouraged. This really involves OR in the full sense of the word, and thos
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